Blokes read this... maybe girls too
05 October 2006
Christine gives some excellent dating advice... before she met me too.
(see here)
tags christine, linkage, thinking
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the twilight years
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my name is mike jolly. i’m a friendly outgoing bloke. i love jesus, my wife, my children and friends. i’ve worked as a pastor, fellow, window cleaner, teacher, veggie salesman and checkout chick. more here.patterns
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Posts
he "danced" the "dance" and I followed his lead.
I think that dancing skills are highly dependent on how you are brought up.
I did not see this post when it was new back in January or whenever. I wanted to make a comment about that DTR discussion. (I'd never heard the term before. I assume it means discuss the relationship?)
A tale of two guys:
I had one male friend who seemed interested in me - we kind of danced the dance a bit for a week or two. He invited me for lunch and told me he had been praying about whether he should date me or not and that he felt that we should just keep it as friends. We did stay friends, good friends. We did a lot of fun things together. Every once in a while he would verbally confirm with me that I understood that we were still just friends. I SOOOO appreciated his clear communication with me and felt that he was really caring for me, protecting my heart from developing expectations.
Second guy friend. We shared similar taste in music and activities. Both a bit more daring than the others in our group. We went to artsy movies, to the farmer's market for live music. Then he invited me to a family outing. then to an overnight family outing. This was after knowing each other for a year or two. I starting getting more and more uncomfortable doing things with him because he NEVER clarified what the relationship was. How could I save the friendship and not hurt him or lead him on if he didn't take the initiative? I'm not sure. It's just so much better if men can dare to lead the communication.
I feel that I'm in a catch 22: Would I really want to go out with a girl that has such bad taste in blokes that she'd actually go out with me??? Hmmm, we'll see.
I'd agree with you Jerome... but I think the advice Christine gives is good.
Jerome you just need to follow the formula mate ;)
It is undoubtedly good advice... the woman is always right!
And why is it that the women who are most often offended by that statement are the ones for whom it is the most true.
Formulaic dating advice... don't go into marketing Mike!
Seriously though, considering that all through school - which has been the majority of my life - I've always seen my family scorn dating and all those sorts of relationships. And then, all of a sudden, I'm expected to be able to maturely look a girl in the eye and follow some set of rules and make her go to jelly without missing a beat. I quiver at thought alone...
As I said it's "advice" of course it's not some "follow this formula and you'll win big".
Which parts of what she says do you exactly have a problem with, or are you just being facetious?
Facetious for the most part... Serious in the comment on my own experiences of attitudes towards relationships coming from my own family, and hence I'm a little annoyed that such shining armoured blokes seem to be expected. Annoyed or worried. Worried maybe cos, despite being a romantic, (or just emo, I'm not sure which) there is no way that I would have come up with the stuff that Christine came up with. Maybe I might have in some billion word encyclopaedic opus - but it'd be like a needle in a haystack and good for nobody.
Furthermore, I feel obliged to ask, is it ok to be a timid, shy bloke? Because if this is a sin, then I've been as guilty as hell for most of my life. Sorry, I'm putting that in a rather facetious manner too, but you get my concern, don't you?
As someone who readily conforms to the expectations of not talking about taboo topics (of which discussing girls in any seriousness has been one throughout my upbringing - though times are changing), it seems a huge jump to be able to slam it into reverse and just go for it.
The women are always right comment demonstrates beautifully just how defensive people can be, I think. And, personally, I think that some people have a lot to defend...
That probably sounds far more harsh than originally intended. It was originally a joke, but when girls started to take me seriously, it did make me think a bit. But ultimately, I am being quite facetious.
I think I understand where you are coming from Jerome. I don’t think you give yourself enough credit for the bloke you are. You have many great qualities.
You might be timid and shy but that doesn’t mean you aren’t able to be an effective leader or preacher. Paul was accused of being timid and Timothy is believed to have been timid also. So one could argue you are in good company (I’d count myself here to a degree also).
I don’t think that girls are looking for shining armored knight (You know that I’m not like that) but for the godly guy who knows his role in the Christian relationship. Ideally this involves many of the things that Christine says.
But those windows are bloody spotless.
One thing that I've heard, and kind of seen to a small extent - I'm not sure how good a generalisation it is:
Girls don't want a nice guy. But then when they hook up with someone, they wonder why he's not a nice guy... That is, I suppose a separate tangent, but one of the many mysteries of life... depends on the girl too, I suspect.
if nice guy = wishy washy ... then no, she doesn't want him.
I'm sorry, but I really agree with Chrome on this one.
Like Chrome, I find myself naturally shy around women. I may be engaged now but I still feel every woman has a series of expectations they have from a guy who they want to go out with.
It's like having a checklist: if a guy does this (tick), this (tick) and this (tick), then I'll go out with him. So I should change my behaviour if I want to get a girl. And yet at the same time I'm told, as a guy, that I shouldn't expect a girl to change for me.
If I made a checklist of all the things a girl should do to get noticed by a guy (women SHOULD do this, women OUGHT to do that if they should ever expect to have a guy like them), I'm sure I'd offend plenty of women out there.
I can relate to the way that Chrome feels, because I've been through it too. There were plenty of girls who I liked, but weren't prepared to go out with me because I didn't fit in with their ideal of who their perfect man should be. I know I still could have had a wonderful, fulfilling relationship with them, but it didn't matter to them; they were waiting for their "Mr Darcy" so to speak. BTW, now I am engaged, and everyone I can think who thinks like this is still single, and still waiting for Mr Right.
My relationship came around as a result of my fiancee accepting me as the person that I am. Each of us have things about the other that we might find annoying, but we're willing to work together through those issues through honest communication.
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh (it's not meant to be), but I think that it's time to stop focusing on how the opposite sex can make themselves perfect in your eyes, and start thinking about whether your standards for what your perfect guy should be like are Biblical or realistic.
I know Chrome's a great guy, and I really don't get why he's still single. It seems that he just doesn't fit into the idea of what women want, until he starts following this checklist to make him "be a man!"
And that just doesn't seem right to me.
Aww shucks Phil...but "all is fair in love and war". (Francis Edward Smedley wrote that, so I wonder if it's actually true.)
BTW, what is meant by wishy washy, and those of you who know me, would that be an apt description of me?
Is it just that you want a leader? An interesting phenomenon that I've experienced is that, being one of those guys often considered to be responsible (for no good reason, as Phil will no doubt tell you), I've been asked to do things, to be developed as a leader, yet, I've at the same time already been heavily engaged with other responsibilities - such as my studies and my sport to name a few, on top of being an active participant at church-related activities. As a result of an already heavy schedule, I have declined the majority of those "leadership" opportunities. As a result, my "Christian leadership skills" appear to be poor or something. Whether that is true remains to be seen, but is someone willing to challenge me and say that my priorities are all wrong? That I should give up the things that I have already commited to because I'm not being the spiritual leader that I could be?
Without a doubt, I think my reaction would be one of great offense and defence. But something tells me that nobody will tell me that my priorities are wrong. (That is not to say that they won't question them, questioning is good. Please do it. Question everything. But to state outright that I have got it wrong is not something that I expect anyone to do to me.)And rightly so, because if my life is worship, then all the people with whom I interact will no doubt experience the love of God, which I have, irrespective of whether I am a great preacher, Bible study leader etc.
But somehow, I think I have digressed from what Christine was expressing.
i reckon if THIS might be helpful to your queries?
I'd rather laugh than cry: defining leadership
someone else asked me about leadership recently and this is the conversation that ensued. One may naturally have personality traits that lend themselves to "leadership" and others may not. But each husband is called to be "head" of his wife (as Christ is to the church) ... as Mike so fittingly suggested.
My last question was more a case of asking what you meant by wishy-washy...
I don't see that half of this has to do with leadership. For example, your list that a man should:
a. let her see you noticing her across the room
b. be clean and smell good
c. get to know her
d. show her you are attracted to her (“you look great today!”)
e. smile at her
f. be where she is (stalkers need not apply)
g. give her compliments
h. say something funny
i. stand tall
Now, this doesn't strike me at all like leadership. It's like saying that the Pastor of a church should show leadership by:
a. Standing up straight
b. Using deoderant
c. Smiling and acting happy
d. Speaking into the microphone
e. etc etc
That's a wishlist of what I want from a 'dream pastor', but in no way does it denote true Christian leadership.
I'm sorry, but picking a partner because of the steps that the follow from a list seems extremely shallow. I'm reminded to think of a friend of mine with extreme ADHD (controlled by medication). He'll never be able to follow these steps - he's far too excitable. This doesn't mean that he should remain single for the rest of his life. I'd much rather that my fiancee loves me for who I am as a person, not because of the way in which I asked her out, or the way I speak or act around her. And for the record, I do take the leadership role in our relationship.
So what's the alternative? Well I think the entire dating model is flawed. I'd recommend the book "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" by Joshua Harris. Vanessa and I were good friends before we started going out, and I'm a great believer that you should have a good friendship before you start cultivating a relationship. Why not stop going out on dates with people you hardly know, and start figuring out whether the people you're close to might make good husbands/wives?
BTW: I in no way consider Chrome to be 'responsible.' :)
Hey guys... some clarification..
Firstly Christine wasn't dispensing what she saw as hard and fast biblical rules... and certainly the post wasn't about leadership perse (although a godly man will lead).
If you read her post carefully you'll see it is advice and on what women look for in guys.
She was critiquing and challenging the attitude of some guys (not all) who don't take initiative or make the effort in their relationships with girls.
I think the advice is good… things like this girls notice and appreciate. Sure they notice other things (being Godly etc and these are important) but we have to be real here fellas.
a. Let her see you noticing her across the room
b. Be clean and smell good
c. Get to know her
d. Show her you are attracted to her (“you look great today!”)
e. Smile at her. be where she is (stalkers need not apply)
g. Give her compliments
h. Say something funny
i. Stand tall
j. Be a gentleman
k. Have a plan an idea where you are going.
I think there is plenty there for all of us. You guys can’t tell me that girls don’t hear and appreciate when we make the effort?
I feel that if a chick, particularly one that I didn't know real well, saw me following that list she'd think I were somebody to be avoided at all costs.
When does confidence breed sleaziness?
When does being seen noticing someone across the room come across as stalking?
When does giving a girl compliments appear as a lame/shallow pickup attempt?
When is saying something funny being a try-hard?
Of course, I'm putting a negative spin on all of these, that is quite blatantly my intention. Why? Because that is the impression that has been passed on to me.
Stuff that I've heard from girls:
Unwanted attention is really freaky.
They don't want to be rude/harsh to anyone, so they're nice, polite, and provide enjoyable conversations, which seems to encourage more conversation, and then more again (all the while they are looking for a way to get out of it while still smelling of roses).
They find that people who "won't leave them alone" are an issue.
Yet, if you are one of the cool, in, male sex-god-pickup-kings, then that attention that would otherwise be unwanted is completely encouraged. Or so it seems.
To have an ugly person tell you that you are pretty doesn't mean much, cos anyone is pretty compared to them. The source of the flattery is what is important.
So, what can I conclude?
I feel that if
a) someone has the pretty face to melt a woman's heart, Christine's advice is perfect.
b) if someone has been brought up with a confidence around women, has an aura that some people have that makes people want to be around them, etc, Christine's advice is also spot on.
c) if you're one of those people that don't fit into the above categories then Christine's advice will either make you look like you fit into one of those categories and work like a dream or make you look like a pathetic twit, fishing for marlin on five pound line.
d) I also conclude that what Phil has to say about going from being friends to going out gives you far greater scope to find out who they are and to express who you are, which, for me, probably isn't ideal, so I might try to stick to Christine's advice after all.
BTW, Christine, it may sound that I'm bagging you out or saying that I think you're wrong. That is not the case. I am very much more inclined to believe a woman when she says what she wants than to believe a bloke. I suppose, in my comments it has been a case of expressing my frustration at not having a clue what the hell is going on. And, of course, in many ways, I wish that what you said were not true, but alas, I think they are.
@Mike:
a. let her see you noticing her across the room
b. be clean and smell good
c. get to know her
d. show her you are attracted to her (“you look great today!”)
e. smile at her
f. be where she is (stalkers need not apply)
g. give her compliments
h. say something funny
i. stand tall
Do you find it slightly amusing that in beginning your relationship with Christine you wouldn't have been able to do half of these things (ie. be where she is!)?
I am in no way being critical of Christine, it's fair enough that each person has qualities that they wish for in a partner. With Vanessa she did have some of those qualities, while there are other qualities that I had on my wishlist that she doesn't have, but it doesn't matter to me, and I'm glad I didn't decide not to go out with her because of that.
I think that many different people will tell you what the definition of 'being a man' really is. Some people will tell you it's being a physical, sporty person, others will tell you it's all about the size of your muscles, or being fit, or being confident, or being sensitive, etc etc.
My point is that you shouldn't limit yourself to only dating men or women who meet the requirements on your checklist. I am a firm believer that if you love someone you will accept them for who they are, and if you only date someone who has fulfilled your 'wishlist' you'll never learn to love them as they truly are.
I know women have a list of what they'd like to see in a man. But expecting a man to fulfill them is like having a guy expect a woman to fulfill his wishlist - and I'm sure most women would be offended at the very thought of having to act a certain way around a guy so that he'll like her (which, for many men, would probably be a wish that their potential partners act like supermodels). I wish we could learn to accept each other of what we really are. I'm a firm believer that you cannot 'date' or cultivate a good relationship with someone without being friends first.
This is not an attempt to bag anyone out, but just a few posts on my feelings on the topic. I shall conclude with one of my favourite quotes from IRC (hopefully not relevant to the discussion, but funny nonetheless)...
DragonflyBlade21: A woman has a close male friend. This means that he is probably interested in her, which is why he hangs around so much. She sees him strictly as a friend. This always starts out with, you're a great guy, but I don't like you in that way. This is roughly the equivalent for the guy of going to a job interview and the company saying, You have a great resume, you have all the qualifications we are looking for, but we're not going to hire you. We will, however, use your resume as the basis for comparison for all other applicants. But, we're going to hire somebody who is far less qualified and is probably an alcoholic. And if he doesn't work out, we'll hire somebody else, but still not you. In fact, we will never hire you. But we will call you from time to time to complain about the person that we hired.
When do you begin to love the person that you're going out with?
I think you guys need to re-read what I posted last night.... here it is again.
Firstly Christine wasn't dispensing what she saw as hard and fast biblical rules... and certainly the post wasn't about leadership perse (although a godly man will lead).
If you read her post carefully you'll see it is advice and on what women look for in guys.
She was critiquing and challenging the attitude of some guys (not all) who don't take initiative or make the effort in their relationships with girls.
I think the advice is good… things like this girls notice and appreciate. Sure they notice other things (being Godly etc and these are important) but we have to be real here fellas.
Phil! of course, he did none of those things! lol!
but Mike DID do the equivalent.
He commented frequently on my blog. He posted a couple of pictures of himself. He wrote about things that he knew I'D be interested in. Every time I logged onto MSN he IMMEDIATELY started a chat only ending them when he had to go to work or I needed to go to sleep.
If you notice, the list that keeps getting copy and pasted isn't exactly ...
1. 6'4"
2. Broad chest, big muscles
3. Blue eyes
4. Dark hair
5. Calvinist
6. Australian
etc.
the list is instead a suggestion of ways in which a guy might be able to attract a girl's attention and strike up a friendship that might lead somewhere wonderful. How hard is it to stand up straight? How difficult is it to smell good? (reminder to Mike: don't forget your most recent idea for a post) Smile? Compliment her?
Not exactly a list of "must haves" in a husband. It's merely a way of getting your foot in the door so she can see your potential. If she's not even looking at you, she'll never know.
But if you're ranting about how guys/girls often have this mental list of what the perfect mate would be like ... i concur ... but that's beside the point of what my blog post was about.
Why would anyone want to spend time with a Calvinist???
It's the people from who it means very little who try to build your confidence. I generally find that nobody else could give a damn.
Hi Christine,
Yes, I really do agree with you on what you're saying. However, I maintain that if I made the following post on my own blog it wouldn't be appreciated too much:
And girls, if you're really after that perfect guy, PLEASE remember to attract his attention by:
a) Wear some lipstick and eyeliner
b) Put on some perfume, but don't lay it on thick
c) Brush up against him lightly occasionally, maybe with your fingers
d) Look into his eyes when you talk to him
e) etc etc
Stand up and be a WOMAN, girls!
I felt dirty just writing that. But I digress. However, I will maintain that if a woman is looking at a man's potential in a Christian light she won't be observing how he smells and acts, but how he might work to increase her faith. And, to bring my argument full circle, how will she know how strong a guy's faith is if she's not friends with him first?
Please don't see this as an attack on you or what you've said Christine, but rather as an alternative presented by a Christian guy for consideration.
Once again I'll leave you with a joke:
A Touching Story of Love and Marriage
An elderly man lay dying in his bed. In death's agony, he suddenly
smelled the aroma of his favorite chocolate chip cookies wafting up
the stairs. He gathered his remaining strength, and lifted himself from the bed. Leaning against the wall, he slowly made his way out of the bedroom, and with even greater effort inched himself down the stairs,
gripping the railing with both hands.
With labored breath, he leaned against the door frame, gazing into
the kitchen. Were it not for death's agony, he would have thought
himself already in heaven. There, spread out upon newspapers on
the kitchen table, were literally hundreds of his favorite chocolate
chip cookies.
Was it heaven? Or was it one final act of heroic love from his devoted
wife, seeing to it that he left this world a happy man? Mustering one
great final effort, he moved himself toward the table. His parched lips
parted; the wondrous taste of the cookie was almost already in his mouth;
seemingly bringing him back to life.
The aged and withered hand, shakily made its way to a cookie at
the edge of the table, when it was suddenly smacked with a spatula
by his wife.
"Stay out of those," she said, "they're for the funeral."
Phil,
lol!!! i never once took anything personally. and i hope you haven't either. i'm merely enjoying the back-and-forth.
The post just before that was directed toward the ladies ... but the advice was far from that which you recommended.
I'd rather laugh than cry: sit down and shut up
I completely agree with you about wanting a man for more than smelling nice ... perhaps noticing his walk with the Lord. But remember ... those little bits of advice are meant for even before friendship ... even before the girl knows the guy exists. If a friendship is already in place, those steps might even help to take it up a notch or two. I can be friends with a great theologian with evangelistic zeal ... but I may never think of him in a manner other than friend unless he begins to let me know through his actions that he thinks more of me.
(Often actions come before words ... it's a bit safer that way ... if she's not catching on it's a good sign she's not interested or she's just not getting it ... either way ... you need to talk to her once you've caught the vibe).
As a woman, I am NOT going to assume that the "friend" has the hots for me. Heck, Phil, it's called flirting. Mike and I were friends for a while before I noticed little phrases with hidden meanings. Sort of sussing me out. I followed his lead and did the same. We spent an entire night talking once ... midnight till 7:30 in the morning (my time) ... why? He was being where I was and I wanted to do the same.
If I don't want to dance with you, I'll pull away. But if I like how you're guiding me across the dance floor, I won't want another partner. and there's your clue: I like you. It's about intitiation.
There's very little that a woman dislikes more than for her to have to initiate a DTR ... much less have to go out of her way to get the guy to notice her. There are too many slackers in this world who want their bride-to-be to drop down out of heaven with a ring already on her finger. A woman LOVES the effort men take to cherish her, value her, be interested in her.
If she finds herself doing all the work in the beginning of the relationship, I dare say that that sets the tone for the rest of the relationship. Anyone hear the sound of *nagging* echoing through the hallways of the future? She ends up resenting the guy for sitting on his proverbial bum in regards to their relationship. And he resents her lack of respect.
If you take anything away from this ... INITIATE! Don't wait till the girl asks you to dance if you like her.
stand up ... and step up
Dancing is indeed a useful metaphor. When I dance salsa, it is wonderful if the man leads, gently but clearly; and I'm told it's great for him if the woman follows, attentively and relaxedly. It is better still if he dances with skill, grace, vigor and passion. It never quite goes according to plan though - which leads me to the Best Thing Yet - a friendly, warm, forgiving man (and woman).
Gee Fional, you're patient - wading through all that.
I can convince myself of anything, so if I want to see something, then I'll see it. I'll analyse what I want to see and discard things that go against me. Having done that, it makes me very wary of both myself and friendly young ladies.
wow that was a big discussion. It seemed like the guys (least for a while) did miss the point (no offense guys). I only ever saw it as (Christine put it this way 2) some tips on how to go about demonstrating you like a certain girl, not this is what you need to be like to stand a chance to ever be considerd by a girl.
I think Phil did make some great points and Jerome did as well. Yes it would be sad if Christine's list was a basis from which a girl would choose a guy. But again, i never took as that, i always thought it was tips on how to appraoch someone who you liked and you wanted to make known. (as Jolly would later say)
I'm sure Phil pulled some of these trick out when he made it known to Vannesa he was keen. I mean you can do it another way, you could show u liked some one differently but its always good (and probably wise) to have a girls point of view on how to do it.
Another point;
"I'm a firm believer that you cannot
'date' or cultivate a good relationship
with someone without being friends first"
I think Phil's point carries a lot of wieght and is almost so true that you could call it commensense (at least wise) to take this approach.
And yet i strongly disagree that it's completly true. I ended being with someone who i had only known for a day! (opps!). It was a huge risk (I was quite naive to make the choice) yet to my good fortune (least for a while) things panned out extremely well.
The girl was a good Christian, she had a good solid concept as to what a realtionship should be like, and despite the fact we had never known eachother prior to what happend, things worked really well.
It was an amazing realtionship and i will forever have a huge amount of respect for her. I still firmly believe that if it had not been for some (i guess you could say unique) ummm how can i put it, intervention, it would have worked.
I hold no gurdges, or resentment, i now only see it as a shame that things didn't work, not as a reason to go out and kill somebody. But i knw that me and this girl had it locked down, by that i don't mean we didn't need to work on things, and mabye if things had been different it would have gone well. So despite it being wise its not always the case and mabye at times a risk like that can pull of very well and is worth taking, though it is a risk.
Thanks for the tips Christine. ;)
Life on the edge G-Blog!
I spose life is all a big risk anyway, and if we avoid risk, we avoid life.
Hmmm, I should remember that. In relationships and in life in general.
I could procede to spend the next 72 hours preparing a dissertation on risk management of general life for ordinary Australians, but alas, that would result in "Paralysis by Analysis", another wonderful project management catch phrase.
Bloody hell Mike. You should have known better than to engage me in a discussion on building romantic relationships: you should have known that I'd do the most unromantic thing conceivable: analyse it. I'm an engineering student. That's what I do. No more relationship analysis. Please. It's gone too far.
Now I feel like I'm lying on a couch talking to a shrink trying to blame a recent rampage on the temperature of my orange juice when I was in my formative years...
Either way, thanks for the advice, the perspectives, the truth, the ideals, the... there I go again.
Have a nice day.
I have to say jerome I think there are a few ways to tell if I girl thinks your a stalker freak. be cause they will
1. give polite minimal answers to your questions. make minimal polite conversation
2. avoid eye contact, make eye contact with their friends in a get me out of here way, or give you the equivalent
3. will find a excuse to get away
A girl that is interested
1. will look you in the eye
2. answer questions more extensively and ask you questions
3. will spend a longer time with you
I admit it can be hard to tell the difference between friendship interest and romantic interest esp when people are shy or very comfident flirty people.
Phil I find the analogy of the workman with the good qualifications but still not hired interesting. I have to point out that although he had the right qualifications and so on. They may have felt he didn't have good communication skills needed for the job or fitted in with the team whereas another applicant may have as well as the qualifications. In the same sense they may be a great guys who's godly and everything and even a great communicator but there's a clash of personalities so it wouldn't really work.
Also it says in the the bible to not arouse the heart till it so desires basically even if the guy is really great there is no point taking it further if you don't desire him it will just be hurtful.
I don't think you should assume that just because a girl isn't interested in you that it was just because you don't fit their image of an ideal man it is one of many possible reasons. I agree with you that shouldn't have a ticklist guide of what the guy should be but in the end thats their issue. And I don't think is a bad thing if they are still single ever.
Marriage doesn't solve all your problems or make you happy, it can create problems. The only way you will find fulfillment in life is in christ. I'm glad people have told me this and over and over again because its easy to think that having a guy will bring happiness and I've thought that at times.
I desire to have a relationship but I'm also cautious I've observed and heard of many people being hurt by relationships so I don't really want to rush into one. The in love phase is dangerous because many people perceive it to be love. I'm quite happy to be single at the moment and independant-(having fun with friends) and I'll see what happens.
I think the advice is good and not superficial I mean it's not asking guys to spend hours working out or doing their hair but use deorant which should be pretty standard our society anyway as basic hygene. I think if you like someone and want something to happen then you have to make an effort- to see if its replicated. other wise its likely nothing will